Sound technical content, curated with aloha by
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
Pine Beach, NJ
The authoritative public forum
for Metal Finishing since 1989
-----
FB Rogers Silver Co. -- Is it Sterling or Plated
Quickstart: Virtually all FB Rogers stuff is silverplate, with no intrinsic metal value. You should enjoy it if you like it! ... and save it for your grandchildren, by which time it may have come back into fashion. You can pay online appraisal services for an instant appraisal if you wish, but currently it almost surely has neither collector value nor metal value.
This meeting place welcomes Q&As, photos, history, & interesting tidbits -- but it's not a consultancy.
Please engage with others
• When people show interest in each other's situations, the forum is informative, and fun too !
• If people post their own question but show no interest in others', it can quickly become a long string of unanswered questions
Q. If the silver says F.B.Rogers - Italy is it plate or silver
Joe ercanbrack- Lomita California
July 22, 2023
A. Hi Joe
If the item is not stamped 'sterling' or '925', it's very unlikely to be silver. Plus, F.B.Rogers surely made way more silverplate than silver. So I think it's almost surely silverplate.
Luck & Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
Q. F B Roger's produced a brand labeled Pewterlite. Is this pewter or silverplate with a pewter finish? I can't find any site that references that this company ever making pewter products. I see some of their items listed as pewter on Etsy but most have items listed as silverplate on ebay.
Interestingly, I am more interested in the pewter items or pewterlite if they are pewter rather than silverplate as I collect and have restored some pewter. Also pewter is all the way through the piece so I would never worry about losing plating.
Hobbyist - NYC
November 8, 2023
Pewterlite on eBay (affil link)]
A. Hi Lisa,
Yes, Pewterlite seems to be pewter, not silverplate.
Luck & Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
Q. I have a silver tray with the same pattern as many Silver Plated trays. However the back merely says F.B Rogers B.R Brass U.S.A. However it's silver coloured. What does this imply?
Any help appreciated as I am a beginner in every way! It is not magnetic. Is it silver plate like others, or something else?
Thank you,
Confused! :)
Hobbyist - Ottawa, Ontario
November 10, 2023
A. Hi Lorna,
It is not obvious to me exactly what that means, but there was a company in New York called B&R Mfg. Co. who specialized in brass objects.
Some silver plating is done on a substrate called nickel-silver (which contains no silver except in the plating); some silver plating is on brass substrates. In neither case is the silver plating thick enough to be economically recoverable.
I'd say your tray was apparently made of brass then silver plated. You can look for similar stuff on ebay.
Silver Trays
on eBay
(affil link)
It's probably not worth anything, it's just a matter of whether you like it.
Luck & Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
Thanks so much! I assume that to be the case. Sorry if it was unclear, I meant that the pattern on the tray looks the same as exact others I see online that are silver plated. But mine only has the B.R. Brass etching with the name.
- Ottawa, Ontario
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Q. I was doing some thrift shopping the other day and came upon a tea set and bought it for $29.00, When I got it home I knew I had to clean it right away and during the cleaning I found the Letters F.B. Rogers but there are no other markings on the items. How do I tell if it is sterling or silver plated?
Thanks Bev
hobbyist - Hastings, Iowa
2007
A. $29 tells you it's plated, not sterling. If sterling, it would be worth ten times that just as scrap value.
Jeffrey Holmes, CEF
Spartanburg, South Carolina
A. Try
silvermarksfinder.com ⇩
You may be lucky. Not everyone knows the value of the things they sell.
Geoff Smith
Hampshire, England
Ed. note: The above link is broken and the domain for sale; thankfully, the Internet Archive saved a copy here
]A. F.B. Rogers is in itself a clue that it is silverplate as this was their specialty. They are now a part of National Silver Company. If you paid $29 for it and it polished up nicely then you got your money's worth. Just relax and enjoy it!
Marvin Baird- Peoria, Illinois
Q. What is known about "silver-plated" flatware marked fb rogers china? "Plated", etc., is not indicated on any of the pieces. My daughter found a set for sale she wants. It's a bit pricey.
However, I am rather concerned.
The listing states it is b. f. rogers (as visible in one picture), rather than f.b and states age between 1900 and 1940.
Seller describes it as elegant with onyx highlights.
Seller states it does not know the pattern.
The listing also mentioned that some of the seams were visible denoting minimal use. It is use that polishes/eliminates their visibility. hhhmmu.... relying on only common sense, the seam issue points to inferior craftsmanship.
However, I love my daughter and do not want to disappoint without factual explanation.
I'VE DONE MUCH RESEARCH TO NO AVAIL. I CHECKED OUT REPLACEMENTS.COM, OF COURSE.
PLEASE HELP!
THANK YOU,
steph gregory
- saint petersburg, Florida
March 10, 2008
|
Hi, Sharo ... I mean Steph.
Basic instinct tells me there's something suspicious about your portrait.  Ted Mooney, P.E. Striving to live Aloha finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey |
A. This message is for Steph G of St. Petersburg:
Hi: Don't buy the stuff if it is marked "F B Rogers-China". I won a whole lot of this junk flatware on a non-profit auction site and they advertised it as "silver plate" when in truth it is similar to plastic spray painted with a silver coating which MAY contain lead. I am desperately trying to get my money back. I've had to email the Consumer Protection Agency of the state where I won the auction. This has been going on since January. I am finally getting some results now that I've involved the state claiming false advertising.
Sincerely
- Brookfield, Wisconsin
Q. How could you tell it was fake and not real silver plate? I bought some recently that says F.B. Rogers China and now I'm confused. Is there none made in China that is legitimate?
Lynn Farnsworth- Columbus, Ohio
April 28, 2008
A. Lynn F: You can tell if the flatware is silver plate by trying to break it. If it snaps in two then you have the cheap stuff I was stuck with. Also there is a pattern out there by f b rogers/China that is stainless steel. Hold a magnet to it and if it holds you have stainless steel and NOT silver plate as advertised. Take the stuff back and get your money back and deal with companies that deal in silver plate.
Sincerely
- Brookfield, Wisconsin
Q. Found something similar at a store.
It's a water / milk pitcher marked
F. B. ROGERS SILVER CO.
2707
DATED 1883
The trade mark is a crown
Anybody know anything on this?
Thanks
- Dayton, Ohio
August 8, 2008
A. This is a response to Eric Spain. Hi, I've been researching the F.B. Rogers Co. because of a sugar and creamer I picked up. The company started in 1883, incorporated in 1886, and became part of the National Silver Co. in 1955. Yes, the Encyclopedia of American Silver Manufacturers says the official F.B. Rogers trademark is a crown with 1883, which sounds like what you wrote. I read they're known for silver plating, and I can tell my sugar and creamer are silver plate over copper because the slight wear spots inside show a pinkish coppery hue. Hope that helps!
Michelle Fender- St. Petersburg, Florida
English, Scottish, Irish
Silver & Gold Marks
on AbeBooks
or eBay or
Amazon
(affil links)
Q. I have a coffee pot with attached lid along with floral design. Also have creamer, sugar bowl and a large serving tray. All these items say F.B Rogers with the crown emblem along with the numbers 1883. All pieces say silver. My question is how do I find the value for this whole set? Are these items worth anything? Did F.B.Rogers make items marked sterling silver? Someone offered me $135. for the whole set. Was that good?
Eleanor Sanchez- Bakersfield, California
September 12, 2008
A. Hi, Eleanor. I apologize but we can't offer any appraisal help ... but I think it's very unlikely that it's sterling silver if it doesn't say "Sterling", although you can go to a "We Buy Gold" store and they'll tell you. If you track similar items on eBay ...
E.B. Rogers Silverplate on
eBay (affil link)]
it may help you decide decide what you can get for it -- $135 sounds okay to me :-)
Sorry and good luck.
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E.
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
Q. I have a meat platter with F.B. Rogers on the back also the number 1209- Is this number a pattern no.? How do you tell the difference between silver versus silver plate ?
Florence AdamsHomeowner - Bel Air, Maryland
September 15, 2008
A. I'm not sure what the number stands for, it could be a model number as I have seen similar numbers on F.B. items (not including the crown TM with 1883).
If your item is in NEW condition, you probably won't be able to tell that it's silver plate, but if the item has been USED, you may see a pinkish/orange hue to the finish. This is the copper coming through the worn spots on the silver plate.
Also, just to keep in mind, if you ever have a question about F.B.Rogers' authenticity, F.B.R. has always been made in the U.S.A. never in China (these are cheap knockoffs, sometimes sold at not-so-cheap prices.) and to tell if you have silver plate or sterling, look for the stamp saying "silver plate" (meaning silver plating over another metal such as copper or nickel) or "sterling" (meaning non-plated silver) or "925" (which is the stamp for sterling silver.)
- Holland, Michigan
March 13, 2009
Q. Hi, I recently fell in love with a set of silverplate on copper made by F. B.Rogers.crown hallmark 1883 and has the number 2351, the set has three coffee pots, one has a swing movement stand and a place for a candle?, although there is a cover to diffuse the heat; there are three other pieces ,sugar, creamer and? The set came with a huge tray.
The woman who sold it to me told me she bought it when her daughter was engaged 40 years ago from an Estate sale that had only the finest things and that it was old then,I bought it because I thought it was quite beautiful , My question is how old is this set? Can anyone please date it ? I paid $125.00 and to me it was worth every cent. Is the # a clue to the age or to a pattern? I thank you for your time
//(*_~)\\
Buyer - Hawley, Pennsylvania
April 2, 2009
Q. I bought a 16 place setting with hostess set, serving pieces and extras of FB Rogers-China silver plate at a thrift store for $40. Research is revealing this is a knock-off and not real FB Rogers. Does anyone know what this set originally would have sold for? Although I know it is a cheap set, it is pretty but I would like to know if I did ok on price.
stephanie contos- san diego, California
April 26, 2009
Q. What is it used for. I picked it up at a swap meet it was black and required some serious elbow grease.
It has silver ornate separate lid. It would appear to take some heat.
Can anyone help me with some information of date, etc.
Hobbyist - Western Australia
April 21, 2009
Ed. note: We've rec'd no photos or other info from you, Lillian. Please attach them in email to mooney@finishing.com for posting here.
Q. I have had a FB Rogers tea and coffee pot set for about 10 years. It was a gift from my father. It has the large coffee pot on tilting stand with burner, 2 different sized tea pots, a creamer, sugar and 1 other piece plus the large tray. It is all marked FB Rogers with "Trade Mark" at the top, the crown and 18 83. Not one of the pieces say the pattern number. Any ideas.
Georgia MillardHobbyist - Houston, Texas
June 1, 2009
Q. F.B ROGERS SILVER CO 1883 then a 648. Hi. I have acquired a two tier beautiful serving (lazy susan type dish) dish large and round bottom with the one on top smaller with a great handle so it can be offered to guests. Does any one know if this would be silver? It has no other markings but those in my title. It is BEAUTIFUL and appears to be all silver. There isn't much wear and has been taken care of well. Is this also a popular pattern? I can not find this pattern number anywhere so I do not know date of making. If anyone can help with this please do and thank you! Is this silver? Usually I find silverplate or silver on copper etc but not with this one.
Thank you!
Anita
collector - Vancouver, Washington
Q. We were leasing a home to an individual who left without paying rent. We were getting rid of the mounds of junk remaining and came across a tray that appears to be silver plate. Since I do not know the difference between silver and silver plate I thought this would be a way to confirm. The only markings that I can find read "Roger's Bro. 2380". I would appreciate your expert opinion. Thanks, C. Schwarz
C. Schwarzcasual interest - Pipe Creek, Texas
December 9, 2009
A. Hi, C. Thanks for your kind compliments, but even still you can't get "expert opinion" for free on the internet; you would need to take the pieces to an antique store or talk to an appraiser for that :-)
But Roger's Bros. overwhelmingly made silverplate. And the pieces aren't marked "sterling". So they are almost surely silverplate.
You may find www.silvercollecting.com ⇩ interesting.
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E.
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
[Ed. update: The above link is broken. Thankfully, the Internet Archive saved a copy here
These days information often appears on the internet, then disappears forever. If that is a concern to you please consider a donation to The Internet Archive].
Q. Hi: We received an F.B. Rogers Silver Co. Trademark 1883 silverplate set back in 1968 and the coffee pot and teapot are needing to be replated. Where is a good place to get them replated? Even though the other pieces are still good, should we have the entire set replated? Thanks, Fred
Fred Halvorsenhobbyist - Findlay, Ohio
March 2, 2010
Ed. note: If it is important to you that the pieces match in color and luster, yes, they all need replating. You might consider the shops shown in our Jobshops directory; we can't print recommendations of particular shops (huh? why?).
Q. Hello, I have a tea pot and coffee that are marked F.B Rogers without any other markings. Trying to find out if it is plated, but after reading the noted I guess it is. Should I look for any other marking on them?
Charlene Davis- Owens Cross Roads, Alabama
January 22, 2011
Q. I inherited a set of dinnerware in original case from my mother, who always referred to it as silverware. The pattern is 1847 rogers bros., pattern is "eternally yours". How do I find out if this pattern is silver, silverplated, or other metal?
I live in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.
inherited silver dinnerware - Baton Rouge, Louisiana, USA
May 9, 2011
Q. I have a 4 piece tea set. It includes pot, creamer, sugar bowl with lid, and a round serving tray. On the pot it has a crown with the number 18 at the left and 83 at the right for (1883) also located just below it has the number 2391. It does say F.B. Rogers Silver Co on the pot only. The serving tray has a design located across it. Can you tell me how old it is? What the 2391 means, etc?
Pat Copeland- Diamond, Missouri, USA
January 9, 2012
A. Hi, Pat.
Please try to track it down in hallmarking books at the library; otherwise, the simplest route to your answers is usually to find similar stuff on eBay or take them to a "We Buy Gold" store, which will have testing equipment. Good luck!
Hopefully readers of this public forum will try to help you too, but it is almost surely just silverplate of no substantial value :-)
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E.
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
Q. I came across an "F.B. Rogers" bread plate. That is the only thing written on the back. I am assuming it is a forgery since it does not have a crown emblem, but is heavy like silver and polished up very nicely. Were there any "F.B.Rogers" items manufactured without the crown?
Rebecca Diane Barton- Amarillo, Texas, USA
January 29, 2012
A. Hi Rebecca. Anything can be forged, but this name adds little if any value, so I doubt that this was the case. Rather, the company was bought, sold, re-organized, and moved countless times and there was probably an agreement that some vendor, or licensor, could use only the name; or perhaps a vendor thought there was a little value in the name but not enough in the various logos to bother with.
Yes, silver is heavier (10.49 g/cc) than brass or nickel-silver (about 8.5 g/cc) but I think it would be tough to tell just from the heft. You could use Archimedes' principle to determine the density :-)
Luck & Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
This meeting place welcomes Q&As, photos, history, & interesting tidbits -- but it's not a consultancy.
Please engage with others
• When people show interest in each other's situations, the forum is informative, and fun too !
• If people post their own question but show no interest in others', it can quickly become a long string of unanswered questions
Q. Due to the timeline of the F.B. Rogers Silver plating Co.'s history, if it says "F.B. Rogers" on it, is it antique? Or after their acquisitions and mergers, did they still print FBR on their pieces? Also, I saw above that they only had things made in the USA. I've seen a couple of goblet sets on eBay, one made in Spain and the other in Portugal. Those would be replicas then?
Deanna Clark- Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
February 21, 2012
Q. F.B.Rogers marked with a crown and 1883. Underneath the marking is what I believe to be the pattern number. 3354. However after hours of internet searching I cannot find anything that is identical with the same numbers. I believe it's a percolator but of abnormal size. Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Scott
- Ferndale, Michigan, US
March 19, 2012
Q. I have a Silver platter with nice etching on the face of it and has the stamp FB Rogers Trade Mark Silver Company 1883 with number stamped under the trade mark #60S1 or #6051.
Thank you
- Yuma Arizona USA
April 3, 2012
Q. Large three-legged bowl w/Lid My bowl, that I found in a box in my attic, has the "1883 F.B. Rogers 9058" on the bottom and is very heavy. I didn't notice a "pinkish" hue that someone else had mentioned for the silver-plated. I was going to take it to a pawn shop to have them check it out but I am very nervous about whether they will actually be truthful or not. Can you tell me if it is definitely silver-plated?
Vicki LaFavers- Greenfield, Indiana USA
April 9, 2012
Q. I have a tea service with tray, 2 tea pots, sugar bowl and hinged creamer. Below the fb.rogers silver co inscription are the numbers 2670. is this silver or silver plated? Thank you
kathy daniels- beckley, West Virginia, us
April 13, 2012
A. Hi David, Hi Vicki, Hi Kathy.
No readers have challenged the responses posted 5 years ago that this stuff is silverplate; plus it's not marked Sterling or 925. I don't think you'll find claims that such F B Rogers items are solid silver.
But you can test it yourself or take it to a jeweler, gold store, or pawnbroker. Threads 25450, 36471, and 42765 cover home testing. Good luck :-)
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E.
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
Q. I recently purchased an F B Rogers Cake Stand that is stamped with correct mark but also is stamped with 915. Is this a model number or a mark for silver purity? I'm not expecting anything special as I bought it suspecting plate.
Grant Knox- Shepherdsville, Kentucky USA
May 21, 2012
A. Sorry Grant, it's just a model number. It's silverplate.
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E.
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
Q. After reading all your posts and seeing what my item is marked, I'm sure it's silverplate, but I wanted to know what the 933 double plate means. This is a hinged, lidded coffee pot. Apparently it meant something to someone as they have engraved numbers in the bottom in case stolen. (I assume) I have other silverplated items that do not have this stamped on it. IS this item any better?
Katy Krieger- Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
June 6, 2012
Q. I got this set one year for Christmas. It sat in my closet never used it. Know nothing about it. It says "Rogers co stainless China" on the back. If anyone knows anything about it I would greatly appreciate it, thank you
- bangor Maine united states
July 10, 2012
A. Hi Lance. It's a stainless steel serving set. Many families have one or more. It was a $25 or $30± item when new. Good luck.
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E.
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
Q. Hi! I've been searching online for a silver plate tea set. As I was researching, I came across this site and was extremely interested by all the details and history arising from it. With what I've read on this site, I'm extremely confused about the set I'm most interested in. It's said to be from Rogers Silver Co., but there's no mention of an FB. Instead, these markings are found:
1881 Rogers Canada
P Copper
B M MTS
9977
If FB Rogers began in 1883, could this be something produced by the same company in 1881 in Canada? Recommendations for purchasing?
Thanks!
- Puyallup, Washington, USA
July 27, 2012
Vol. 1: Europe"
by Whetstone,
Niklewicz, & Matula
on AbeBooks
or Amazon
(affil links)
A. Hi Stacy. This is a metal finishing site, hence our interest is mostly in the process of silver plating. We have all the space in the world if you and fellow enthusiasts want to work together on each others' issues, but tracking down hallmarks or appraising items, is off topic for me; sorry.
Rogers 1881 is just the name of one of many companies making silverplate. I understand it was bought by Oneida in 1929, but that doesn't mean they stopped using the Rogers 1881 trademark in 1929. "P Copper B M MTS" probably means that it is plated copper, with the mounts made of brittania metal alloy. "9997" is just a pattern number.
Other sites, that focus on collecting, note that virtually none of this stuff has any value at all; so buy what appeals to you, not what you think has resale value ... because it almost surely never has any. Please look for similar stuff [on eBay affil link] and if you still feel it is valuable, take it to an antique shop. Best of luck.
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E.
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
Q. I have a oval bowl type platter with scalloped type edges.It has four curved feet and is approx. 14" x 10". I had received this as a wedding gift in 1986. It still has the original plastic which says F.B.Rogers Silver Company. It shows the crown with trademark 1883. The platter itself says.. by Georgetown. That's all I actually see on the platter. It is very beautiful and heavy. I have looked everywhere on line and eBay [on eBay affil link] trying to find out information on it, as to what type of silver it is and what the approx. value may be. I am thinking of selling it, but I have no idea what to ask. Do you happen to know anything about it? I would appreciate any info you would share with me. Thank You in advance! Karen
Karen Lowe- Newburgh, Indiana USA
August 12, 2012
A. Hi Karen. It is almost surely silverplate because virtually every such piece is, and the metal itself is not worth anything unless it's stamped "Sterling". You can take it to a gold buyer for testing to be sure -- they're on many city street corners, or test it yourself or take it to an antiques dealer. Maybe you can see similar items at Goodwill.
But when people suggest looking on eBay , it's not that you must find your exact piece) -- that might never happen because there are countless thousands of patterns). Since it has no intrinsic metal value, it's only worth what someone is willing to pay, and if people are offering $2 or $20 or $200 for generally similar items, that's what you need to know. It's very unlikely that anyone is desperately scouring the world for your exact specific piece -- if they want silverplate they'll probablt settle for something generally similar. Good luck!
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E.
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
Q. I read all questions/answers but questions about F.B. Rogers with no CROWN LOGO or 1883, were not addressed.
I have a tea set with just "F.B. Rogers" but there's not a crown logo, 1883 or indication of silver, although I did find out F.B. Rogers DID have some silver pieces (118, 142, 144, 149, etc.) Here is the link to the website with the information - www.replacements.com/silver/FBR.htm
I've been in business for over 20 years and know that some companies do not come up with a logo until later years, so I'm wondering if this may be one of the original sets. I'm not questioning whether silver or silver-plated, just as to how old this set may really be, considering no insignia!
Thanks for your time!
- Arlington, Texas, USA
January 18, 2013
Q. I am moving and trying to "let go" of many things collected over the years. I came upon this site and have read all of the postings.
It seems to me that since there are so many different markings and not one uniform mark, that it would verify that these items are not expensive or valuable.
My item falls under that category also. I have a 12.5" round platter. One the front is what I think is a family crest. It has three animals (maybe deer). The middle animal is sitting on something that looks like a badge that the other two are holding up. Under all of that is a ribbon, and inside the ribbon it says (I think) MAJOR AB ADVERSIS. On the back is the King's Crown. At the top and on each side of the Crown it says TRADE MARK. At the bottom of the Crown and on each side it says 18 83. Then under the Crown it says F.B.ROGERS SILVER CO. Under that it says SILVER ON COPPER. Finally, under that it says 1914.
What is your opinion? Thanks.
- Taneytown, Maryland, USA
September 8, 2013
Q. I have an F B ROGERS chaffing tray holder, appears very old. It has on each leg, inside, 1844 stamped. Any ideas? Thanks.
Ron Epperson- West Palm Beach, Florida, USA
December 2, 2013
A. Hi Ron. 1844 was the year Rogers was founded, not the year your tray was made. If it doesn't say "sterling", it's not worth anything. Sorry. You might look at thread 36471, "Testing Silver at Home for the Average Consumer", especially the October 23 posting, with the youtube video, "What to Do with Plated Silver".
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E.
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
Q. I have a collection of flatware which appears to have had its silver plating removed. It's stamped 1847 ROGERS BROS and lacks any detail so it appears one could've used 00 steel wool to rub off the silver plate. The stamped area is lower yet shows no silver plating either. Could the old plating just worn away and/or flaked off when immersed in boiling water?
Bill Wilson- Longview, Texas, USA
December 23, 2013
A. Hi Bill. Boiling water would not remove silver plating.
Beyond that, there really isn't much to say because the silver may or may not still be there (although it does sound unlikely that there is silver left if all the detail is worn away), and nobody can speculate accurately about what some unknown person may have done at some unknown time in the past. Good luck.
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E.
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
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