Sound technical content, curated with aloha by
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
Pine Beach, NJ
The authoritative public forum
for Metal Finishing since 1989
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Phosphate Fluoride Treatment on Titanium
RFQ: Fluoride Phosphate per FPS-0116 quote needed.
I am wondering if you know a company that does Conversion Coating of Titanium Alloys (Fluoride Phosphate type) per FPS-0116 Rev. "C" ? We are located in the New York area. My Company sub-contracts for the US Government and the finishing Houses I usually deal with do not do this process. I have tried to search the web and only came up with one potential company that does this procedure. I need to send a formal quote (what this job looks like, size, grade of material, Qty, etc.), so if anyone out there does this please e-mail me a fax and phone # and I will send over a quote.
Thank you in advance....
Dina M [last name deleted for privacy by Editor]- Ronkonkoma, New York
2003
Ed. note: Sorry, this RFQ is old & outdated, so contact info is no longer available. However, if you feel that something technical should be said in reply, please post it; no public commercial suggestions please ( huh? why?)
Surface residue on titanium bolt
Q. My question is: Does fluoride phosphate treatment of a titanium bolt leave a white powdery residue after processing?
John O. Overstreet IIaircraft part manufacturer - Lewisville , Texas, U.S.A.
2003
A. That's a good question, John, and nothing wrong with it, but without evidence that the phosphate treatment caused the white powdery residue you are observing, there may not be enough data for any speculation to be useful. Is this residue still on the bolts? Any chance of finding out the constituents of the residue? Good luck.
Ted Mooney, P.E.
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
2003
Galvanic compatibility of phosphate-fluoride treated titanium and aluminum
Q. Hi,
The question refers to:
What would be the effect of inserting a Titanium bolt that has been treated with phosphate fluoride into an aluminium structure, possibly bare aluminium.
My understanding is that the phosphate treatment should not be used on aluminium. The insertion will therefore expose the bare aluminium to the phosphate treatment posing the risk of galvanic corrosion. Is this possible? If so, can I prevent this by using touch-up chromate conversion coating on the aluminium holes.
Regards,
Victor Xaba
aerostructures - Kempton Park, Johannesburg, South Africa
2007
A. Phosphatizing per se is not harmful to aluminum, Victor, as far as I know; it's just not as beneficial as chromate conversion coating. Yes, a touchup chromate conversion coating may help. But the galvanic incompatibility is between the titanium and the aluminum, and how serious it is depends on the exposure conditions and the criticality of corrosion. If it's an airframe, the bolts should probably be cadmium plated, IVD coated, or aluminum plated. This may require more specific advice than I have the experience to offer though :-)
Ted Mooney, P.E.
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
2007
Analyzing a conversion coating for titanium
Q. My name is Michael and I work in a bond shop. My question concerns a conversion coating for titanium. We are setting up a small process tank for applying a conversion coating on titanium details. The solution make-up is 6.5 to 7.0 oz./gal. trisodium phosphate ⇦this on eBay or Amazon [affil links] , 2.5 to 3.0 oz./gal potassium fluoride ⇦this on Amazon [affil links] and 2.2 to 2.5 oz./gal. hydrofluoric acid. The question I have is how to test for the concentration of trisodium phosphate and potassium fluoride? We have a titration method for the hydrofluoric but not the other two.
Michael Dalleobond shop supervisor - Bloomfield, Connecticut
2007
A. A very good method for analyzing TSP in this bath is Method 39.02 in Aubrey Knowles' Colorimetric Analysis of Metal Finishing & Metal Working Solutions & Effluents ⇦[this on on Amazonaffil links]. For KF, it is easiest to determine the total fluoride by any of the numerous methods available and subtract the fluoride that is due to HF. HF can be determined by a simple acid-base titration, but you have to account for the influence from the acidified TSP. As you can see, this particular solution is fairly complicated to analyze by wet chemistry because of the various interactions.
Jon Barrows, MSF, EHSSC
GOAD Company
Independence, Missouri
2007
A. The acid titration endpoint pH is critical, or you will be titrating some of the dissolved titanium. Check out Hach's web site for ion selective electrodes, or look at one of the specific fluoride titrations. A caution, the titrant is regulated (radioactive).
James Watts- Navarre, Florida
2007
Why do we have to wear gloves?
Q. Why do you have to handle coated titanium parts with gloves only?
Morri EmersonQC Inspector - Yakima, Washington, USA
March 21, 2008
A. Sparse information ... seems you ought to be able to get the answer yourself by handling some parts without gloves and monitoring them for X# of days or weeks to see what, if any, blemishes or defects arise. And then there's the old adage that cleanliness is next to godliness...
Thomas Hanlon, Materials Engineer
aerospace finishing - East Hartford, Connecticut, USA
March 25, 2008
March 26, 2008
A. Hi Morri. I think that, due to ever higher quality standards and increasing miniaturization of everything, we're very rapidly moving towards a world where wearing gloves until parts are packaged will soon be universally expected and a finger print will be considered a defect. A decade or two ago managers scoffed at the idea that parts handlers needed to wear gloves, a decade or two from now they will scoff at the idea that any parts handler anywhere is trying to not wear them :-)
It's probably a good idea to stay ahead of the curve and just do it :-)
Ted Mooney, P.E.
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
Q. Regarding Fluoride Phosphate:
What is the best way to check concentration levels of the phosphate and potassium levels of the bath. Atomic absorption
⇦this on
eBay
or
Amazon [affil links] seems to be the only suggestion I get.
- Orange, California
October 22, 2009
Q. Looking for information on trouble-shooting phosphate fluoride solutions used to treat titanium.
Don Wright- Portland, Oregon, USA
November 12, 2014
Q. I am looking for chemical process control and trouble shooting guides for generic phosphate fluoride solutions used to treat titanium.
Thanks!
- Portland, Oregon, USA
January 5, 2015
2nd Request
9th Edition, Vol. 5
"Surface Cleaning, Finishing & Coating"
on AbeBooks
or eBay or
Amazon
(affil links)
A. Hi Don. I don't know of any such charts, but the ASM Metals Handbook vol. 5 .
does have 2 pages on the process, which at least gives some cause and effect clues. Good luck.
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
January 2015
Q. Howdy,
I was wondering how phosphate fluoride would affect a titanium part if it was held by an aluminum rack?
My understanding is that it will create a galvanic cell, which will cause corrosion. I'm unsure if 4 minutes will be a short enough exposure time to prevent any concern.
Any insight would be appreciated!
Thank you for your time.
- Massachusetts, USA
January 4, 2018
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