Sound technical content, curated with aloha by
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
Pine Beach, NJ
The authoritative public forum
for Metal Finishing since 1989
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18/10 vs. 18/8 and 18/0 stainless steel for flatware and pots & pans, p.4
Q. Why is it that I get a weird taste on my tongue when utensil touches my tongue. I use mainstays brand with 18/0 stainless steel? Was wondering if it was because it was cheap at the store or something. Please help and see what I can do to resolve this issue. Thank you,
Luis Jimenez- Oceanside, California
June 22, 2012
Q. Hi
My family uses SS dishware (Two toddlers and 10 year old). We were wondering if it's safe to put in the oven to bake pizza's on.
The bottom of the plate says in a circle 88 STAINLESS STEEL (that's top half of circle)
Then 555
Then bottom half says SHANGHAI CHINA
I looked at several plates, there is no 1 in front of the 8 but there may be a dash between the 8's.
Is this better or worse than the 304 SS?
Is it oven safe?
Thanks
-ron
Concerned dad - Saugerties, New York
A. Hi Ron.
We have discussion threads here about every possible material of construction for cookware including aluminum, cast iron, stainless steel, ceramic, Teflon, etc. . . and the thing is, as soon as you name any material, there is someone out there in the vastness of the internet who thinks it is dangerous. There is nothing you can make cookware from -- absolutely nothing -- such that no one will say it is unsafe. But stainless steel is generally recognized as a safe material of construction for cookware.
I've never heard of type 88 stainless steel or type 555 stainless steel, and suspect that these stampings are model numbers or style numbers rather than an indication of material of construction.
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E.
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
June 23, 2012
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The Silver Superstore (online) has certain brands that are made in the USA with steel from the USA (Sherrill Steel NY). I typed "made in USA silverware" on my internet browser and was taken to their site and specifically to "Flatware Patterns made in the USA". They have silverware sets that are 18/10 stainless silverware sets. I stumbled upon this site and thought others would want to know about this. Marily McKay- Edmonds, Washington USA July 19, 2012 Hi, Marily, and thanks. Yes, there is one small on-again / off-again factory making stainless steel flatware in the USA. Please see letter 15689 where we discuss the closing of this last American manufacturer, then the re-opening to some fanfare, then the re-closing in April 2010, but the re-opening again in August 2011. So stay tuned! opinion! It's a tragedy that our current social system precludes open & intelligent discussion of the many barriers that our country has erected that preclude American success in manufacturing. But those barriers are insuring that low wages and very high unemployment are here for good. Even scarier -- although the bravery of soldiers is legendary and their heroism can make the angels cry -- in the end every war is won by the side with the resources & manufacturing capacity. The Arsenal of Democracy won two World Wars. Now that it has been razed, and been replaced with a gigantic new People's Arsenal, we'd better pray for peace like we mean it :-) Regards, Ted Mooney, P.E. Striving to live Aloha finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey July 20, 2012 September 24, 2013 USA made stainless steel flatware - after much research I found this company: - Sparks, Nevada USA
Regards, Ted Mooney, P.E. Striving to live Aloha finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey September 2013 |
Q. Getting ready to remodel the kitchen and are replacing our VERY old porcelain sink with a stainless steel one. I'm soooo confused! All I find online is the 18-gauge delineation. Would 18/8 or 18/10 be better? Our home improvement store sells both, but online all I can really find is 18/10. Which is better for a sink?
Holly Johns- Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
February 21, 2013
A. Hi Holly. Confusion is to be expected because the salesperson's job is to sell you, as quickly as possible, whatever they can make the most money on. Their job is not to educate you, and they will try to do so only if the education they offer would lead you to buy their product; they'll try to obfuscate if knowledge would lead you away from their product :-)
There are two technical issues here: gauge and composition. Gauge is the thickness of the material. The lower the number, the thicker it is. 16-gauge is 1/16" thick, 18-gauge is a bit thinner, 20-gauge is thinner still. The thicker it is, probably the less likely to get little dents if you drop a heavy pot.
Composition means the ingredients. Nickel is the most expensive ingredient and the number after the slash says how much nickel is in it. The number before the slash is how much chromium is in it. 18/10 is the best stainless you will find (for a sink ... I'm not saying more exotic stainless steels are impossible for specialty applications).
The current reputation of the brand is your best indicator of quality however.
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E.
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
February 21, 2013
Q. Hi Mr. Ted Mooney,
You provide us with lot of usefully answers/explanations, could you please tell us what is your professional background? How do you know all this stuff?
Thanks and best regards,
Zoran
- Munich, Germany
March 30, 2013
A. Hi Zoran. Thank you very much for the kind words. I am a mechanical engineer who spent almost all of my career in the metal finishing field, but most of what I write here is either simple facts that I find by googling, or nothing more than personal opinions :-)
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E.
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
April 1, 2013
Q. 1) Why are some pots such as Tefal & WMF pots and pans magnetic all over interior/exterior? Is it because they are using 18/0 and sandwiched in between? Or because of the bending and rolling process?
It is stated 18/10 on the below part.
As far as I know 18/10 does not have magnetic field.
2) Since 18/10 has no magnetic field (could not use on induction hob), then why do many brands of pressure cookers use 18/10 in the below part and stick it to the stainless steel surface?
3) What is the difference between a 3-ply stainless steel (with no stainless steel stick at below) and 3-ply that has one layer of Stainless steel stuck to it.
Which one is better?
- Georgetown, Penang, Malaysia
April 19, 2013
Q. There is a French knife company, Forge de Laguoile producing knives and flatware advertising a 15/10 and 25/10 pieces. The 25/10 are supposed to be of very high quality. Ever heard of these and would they be a superior product?
karen kyle- san diego, California
July 11, 2013
A. Hi Karen. As long as their model numbers and trade names are not misleading, companies are allowed to use any words they wish. So I don't think 15/10 and 25/10 refer to the composition of the stainless steel. You'd have to ask them what it means . . . it could refer to composition, gauge, how many awards they've won, or anything at all or nothing at all. Sorry.
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E.
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
July 2013
December 11, 2013
!! Hi, Mr. Mooney, I have several tips to offer on this topic, based on deceptive experiences.
First, please warn people that even quality name-brand companies can fail to state the Whole truth regarding 18/10.
I just bought a supposedly-quality-name-brand kettle online, touted as 18/10 both on its underside, and the packaging. I'm very very upset at their deception because it turns out that while its VERY SHINY sides are indeed Non-Magnetic, yet its underpart IS magnetic. And it's the underpart that's usually most prone to rust from water resting on it. So why on earth did they make the underpart with Zero (or low) Nickel? That's very very deceptive because it's not the Whole Truth!
Also, despite your suggestion that sometimes shininess sometimes indicates quality - here's my experience. Years ago I bought a Betty Crocker (mainstays) whistling kettle (18/10) and it remains corrosion-free despite many years of use. The finish on that wasn't even so shiny. By comparison, I'd bought an Off-Brand ""stainless"" kettle in similar size/shape, which had a shinier finish than B.Crocker, yet it rusted after about two years - proof of being a low-nickel grade. Naturally, no specs had been given regarding its grade, but at the time, I'd been ignorant about such matters. Subsequently I educated myself because once bitten, forever wary.
P.S. This thread deserves Five Stars.
- Wash hts, New York
Q. Okay, I have been reading about stainless steel cookware and have talked to several people.
From what I have read somewhere between 15%-18% of people in the U.S.,(5-6% of males and 10-12% of females) have to some degree an allergic reaction to nickel. Most of the medical resources on the web as well as other scientific papers have recommended surgical grade stainless or titanium jewelry, cookware, etc. because they say it is generally considered hypoallergenic.
My understanding is that titanium is the least reactive of the metals used in the cookware. Now I have seen two different quotes for the titanium metals used one was 316TI and the other was 19-9. So to boil all this down, is titanium cookware better than regular stainless as far as allergic reactions? If so, which would be better, 316TI or 19-9? I also wonder about the steel mfg. standards in other countries. Do they have the same standards as America made products. Lately we have seen everything from dog food to drywall that made people and animals sick and it was all manufactured in other countries and imported to save money. I have web links for all of these sources if you want them but I am not interested in advertising, just trying to get answers about allergies. :)
Thank you for maintaining this thread. It is a great post.
Tracy Fannin- Denver, Colorado, USA
December 15, 2013
A. Hi Tracy. I hope I can help with a couple of things ...
First, don't let your kids see your math, where 5-6% of males plus 10-12% of females totals 15-18% of the total population :-)
I think you're actually claiming that 15-18% of the population has nickel allergies and 2/3 of them are female. My understanding is that women are not more susceptible, but that nickel allergy is acquired and women are just more exposed (piercings and such).
Just because something contains nickel doesn't mean people with nickel allergies will be allergic to it. Most people feel that it depends on whether the nickel is "leachable" (whether sweat and other things can attack it and turn it into a soluble salt) ... stainless steel does not leach nickel. Surgical grade stainless steel is type 316 stainless steel and contains 10% nickel.
316TI is just a small variation on 316 stainless steel, and contains 10% nickel and less than 1% titanium; 19-9 is also stainless steel containing 9% nickel. Neither is a titanium alloy (but there are titanium alloys). Salespeople want to sell, so if you express interest in titanium, they will let you believe their stainless steel or aluminum cookware is titanium -- so it may take patience to find "titanium alloy cookware", but very patiently google for it because almost none of it is really titanium.
I don't think Chinese cookware is dangerous, but you would be foolish NOT to worry about it's quality -- but what can you do?
Our reasons for disliking to post links are not solely commercial; 90% go bad very quickly and it is impossible for a tiny enterprise like finishing.com to post links on our 50,000 discussion pages that stay on line for years, and then maintain hundreds of thousands of links to ever-shifting URLs; and web pages full of broken links are crumby web pages :-(
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E.
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
Q. I want to know if 18/8 stainless steel cookware is heavy duty -- as in foods will not stick. For instance, if I want to make fudge in it, is it durable enough that it won't burn, etc.? I am most familiar with 18/10 stainless steel cookware. Thank you.
Beverlee Williams- Amelia, Ohio, United States
December 7, 2013
Q. One vendor has come out with a new line of cookware for induction stoves; it is called 21/0 as it has 21% Chromium and 0% Nickel but claims lower corrosion than 18/10 because of lower carbon .008% and nitrogen .01% plus added titanium .3%, plus .43% copper for even heating. Do you know anything about their claims?
Scott Metcalf- Shelby Twp, Michigan, USA
December 27, 2013
A. Hi Scott. No, I don't think 21/0 stainless steel is as robustly corrosion resistant as 18/10 stainless, but only nickel-free magnetic materials work properly and efficiently on induction stoves, so 18/10 wasn't a potential choice anyway. I'm sure 21/0 is good enough.
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E.
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
December 2013
Q. What is the best brand of cookware? Would 3 ply 18/10 All-clad, made in USA be good pots and pans for cooking for children that didn't leach toxins? What is the difference in the All-clad with copper pans? Thank you for your wisdom.
Hi Lee- NY New York
April 29, 2015
Hello Lee. Discussing types of cookware would be great, but brands not so much. On the anonymous internet there doesn't seem to be many sales managers who can resist posting with fictitious names, posing as satisfied customers, and telling us how awestruck they are with the greatness of their own brand :-)
And worse, how horrible their competitor's brand is. No testimonials or slams of brands please :-)
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
June 2015
Q. I am moving to a new place and have decided to use an Induction Range. I will acquire stainless steel cookware made of 316 grade. I was wondering if stainless steel thickness was a measure of the quality of the cookware?
T. Vaidya- Short Hills, New Jersey, USA
May 31, 2015
A. I think so, T. Fewer dents and dings, and obviously more costly for the manufacturer.
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
June 2015
Q. I am a big fan of stainless steel for its known safety and durability compared to other materials available on the market. I buy any kitchen products I can find that are made from it, including plates, bowls, cups, storage containers, kitchen gadgets, and pots and pans.
I have two concerns which I am hoping someone can help me with:
1) Besides pots and pans, none of the products that I have bought or that I see on the store shelves are marked with a specific composition label for the stainless steel, such as 18/8 or 18/10 (or 304 or 302). They simply say stainless steel. What does this mean about the safety and quality of these products? Is there any regulatory compliance standard regarding stainless steel products made for use with food? Is there anything that I should be concerned about regarding my health, especially if these kitchen items are being used with high salt, high acid or high heat food?
2) I'm noticing more products on store shelves that are labeled stainless steel on the package, but the items inside are not marked at all as stainless steel or simply say stainless. Is this a sure sign of deceptive practices by these companies or are they simply cutting corners by not labeling the products inside?
Many thanks for any replies to my post and for all the previous posts on this thread. I searched numerous websites before coming across this one and can easily say this is the best one by far!
- Richmond, Vermont, USA
June 29, 2015
21/0 Cookware for Induction Cooking
July 6, 2015Q. I found a cookware set that says it's 21/0 stainless.
How can this be possible and can you explain if it's better than 18/0 (trying to stay low on the nickel content)? Here's what they claim:
Made from strong Japanese steel, the construction and design of the Induction 21 Steel® cookware line guarantee superior quality. Each piece has copper melted into the steel, which effortlessly conducts heat quickly and evenly. Titanium is also added for strength and durability to endure everyday cooking. To ensure healthy cooking, the steel is nickel free to prevent allergic reactions to nickel. The tempered-glass lid makes it easy to monitor cooking and the dripless pouring rim reduces spillage along the side of the body.
Features:
Made with superior 21/0 Japanese stainless-steel.
The steel includes: Copper for better heat conductivity, Titanium for quick heating and extra strength, and Chromium for added durability.
The steel is also nickel free to prevent nickel allergies and ensure healthier cooking.
- streamwood, Illinois
A. Hi Elda. I'm not personally aware of any standards-writing body that has established what "21/0" stainless means. The vendor has said it's 21 percent chromium and 0 percent nickel, so at least the nomenclature is used in the same way as for 18/0 and 18/8 stainless. As for their claims about the value of the copper and titanium and chromium content, remember that this stuff is written by copywriters to induce you to buy, not by post-docs to metallurgically educate you.
I have no idea if it's "better" than 18/0 in any way. It's possible that it offers a higher level of ferromagnetism, and thus more efficient induction, or greater corrosion resistance, but they are claiming the proprietary nature of their cookware, so it's on them to prove it if you want it proved; we have no way of knowing that it's even as good.
Some people feel that nickel-free (magnetic) stainless steel is "healthier", others feel that claim is silly and note that nickel-bearing (non-magnetic) stainless is required (not optional) in implants, surgical instruments, dairy equipment, pharmaceutical equipment, etc., and that there is no question that nickel-bearing stainless is more corrosion resistant than nickel-free stainless. But the point is moot because the real reason nickel-free (magnetic) stainless is used for induction cooking is that nickel-bearing stainless won't work :-)
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
July 2015
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