Ed. note: before the internet existed, there was a time when "Sysops" (system operators) ran publics forums via dial-up modems and "BBS" (Bulletin Board System) software. Here is one such discussion from 1991.
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Msg. #2072 in ** Ask Plater B**
Posted on 09/28/91
To: ALL From: KEN ROSENBLUM
- BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS USING HPLC DOES ANYONE HAVE AN OPINION ON THE PRACTICALITY OF A PLATING JOB SHOP INVESTING IN HPLC FOR BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS? WE CURRENTLY USE BRIGHTENERS FOR ZINC CYANIDE, ALKALINE CYANIDE, NICKEL, TRICHROME, COPPER, SILVER, CAD AND OTHER PLATING BATHS AND ARE OFTEN FRUSTRATED BY TECHNICAL SUPPORT GIVEN BY MANUFACTURERS AND DISTRIBUTORS. I AM TIRED OF HEARING SUPPLIERS SAY "WE'VE NEVER SEEN THAT PROBLEM BEFORE" WITH THE FIX ALWAYS INCLUDING SUBCOMPONENTS OF BRIGHTENERS THAT HAVE TO BE SPECIALLY ORDERED. ALSO, THE TIME DELAY IN SENDING BATH SAMPLES TO MANUFACTURERS THROUGH DISTRIBUTORS AND WAITING FOR A RESPONSE AT BEST IS MANY PRODUCTION SHIFTS AFTER THE PROBLEM IS DISCOVERED. ALMOST ALWAYS, THE PROBLEM HAS RESOLVED ITSELF BY THE TIME WE EVER GET A RESPONSE. DOES ANYONE HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH IN-HOUSE HPLC? IS THIS PRACTICAL? WOULD THE RESULTS BE MEANINGFUL TO THE PRODUCTION PLATING BATH? I JUST THINK THAT IF WE COULD ANALYZE BRIGHTENERS IN-HOUSE WE MIGHT RESOLVE PROBLEMS FASTER. THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR ANY RESPONSES.
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Msg. #2073 in ** Ask Plater B**
Posted on 09/28/91
To: KEN ROSENBLUM From: GARY WOLF
- Reply To 'BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS USING HPLC'
Ken, Howdy! I run a smaller shop that uses the MacDermid RL 20 brightener and I have Lea Ronal TinGlo. I also Use MacDermid 8170 Nickel Brightener. We also have periodic problems and Since I worked for nearly 15 years as a supplier to the industry I like to think of myself as knowing a little about the chemistry of the baths. I used to sell you anodes for tin BTW. Any way I have access to the HPLC at U.of Rochester here and I have used HPLC to analyze my baths. It can help with the tin in looking at the depletion anti-oxidizer addition agents. and for looking for contaminants that affect the wetting agent. The RL 20 system breaks down into many different elutable constituents and you would need a really good data set to know what went wrong. The HPLC is good for nickel because it will show the levels of stress reducing agents, carrier brightener, and leveler as well as the wetters which can be depleted at different levels because of changes in tank loadings and part configuration. It won't do much for chromates because the inorganics that are important to the bath don't separate real well. I would not purchase an HPLC as a control instrument. the average scan tales about 45 minutes and without good background data the results good be more confusing than traditional tests like HULL Cells. I think you should consider looking for a local college to work with you. You might get some real good help from an interested analytical chem prof. Hey Lets talk more on the shop owner's forum. Gary Wolf Genesee Valley Metal Finishing
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Msg. #2074 in ** Ask Plater B**
Posted on 09/28/91
To: KEN ROSENBLUM From: TED MOONEY
- Reply To 'BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS USING HPLC'
I don't have the hands-on background with HPLC that Gary has. But we strongly considered it for analysis of an in-house formulated nickel electroforming bath. And, for that case, it was simply a matter of economics of whether it could be justified. But, I worked for suppliers for 11 years, and something you perhaps should bear in mind is that the proprietary brighteners are the economic backbone of the whole supply industry. If you think the suppliers are uncooperative now, wait until you're hot on the trail of their most treasured secrets. I predict you'll find so much feigned ignorance to your every question that you'll be ready to kill. So I think Gary has exactly the right answer: try HPLC at a local university or independent analytical lab and see how much it really helps you before investing in a system.
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Msg. #2082 in ** Ask Plater B**
Posted on 10/01/91
To: GARY WOLF From: KEN ROSENBLUM
- Reply To 'BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS USING HPLC'
GARY WOLF, THANKS FOR THE RESPONSE. KEN
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Msg. #2083 in ** Ask Plater B**
Posted on 10/01/91
To: TED MOONEY From: KEN ROSENBLUM
- Reply To 'BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS USING HPLC'
TED, THANKS FOR THE RESPONSE. SOUNDS LIKE TRYING TO MAKE HPLC USEFUL WOULD ENTAIL DUPLICATING THE WORK THAT CHEMICAL MANUFACTURERS HAVE BEEN SPENDING YEARS DOING. LIKE ALL OF AMERICAN INDUSTRY, WE ARE TRYING TO CONTROL OUR PROCESSES BY CONTROLLING ALL OF THE VARIABLES. UNFORTUNATELY, PROPRIETARY CHEMICALS CAN'T BE CONTROLLED VERY WELL IF WE HAVE NO GOOD WAY OF ANALYZING FOR THEM (READ: ALL OF THEIR CONSTITUENTS). WHILE THIS IS VERY FRUSTRATING, AT LEAST ALL OF OUR COMPETITORS ARE IN THE SAME BOAT. KEN
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Msg. #2088 in ** Ask Plater B**
Posted on 10/02/91
To: KEN ROSENBLUM From: JOHN LOVIE
- Reply To 'BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS USING HPLC'
I worked for some time on control of acid copper brighteners using HPLC. The problem with HPLC is the methods development. We were trying to overcome the same problem that you describe
- brightener imbalance, correctly or incorrectly diagnosed, seat of the pants corrections, etc.
- an unsatisfactory situation for both the customer and the vendor. The bath we chose to look at had four brightener components. We were only able to develop a method for one. Nevertheless this was an enormous help in reducing the number of variables. From what I remember of zinc, the brighteners are easier to analyse and present in higher concentrations. Nevertheless, the methods will need to be developed and tested. You can't unfortunately just but an HPLC and start analysing things. You will need development work from your HPLC supplier, and he in turn will need you vendor to open the books to him
(under appropriate agreements) to be able to learn what to analyse for. If you can get this methods development work done, then I believe that HPLC can be a very valuable addition to plating process control. The results definitely do have meaning to a production bath. If you'd like to give me a call on (908)888-3952, we can talk a little more on how to approach HPLC suppliers and your chemistry vendors to get something going. Cheers John Lovie, ETI
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Msg. #2089 in ** Ask Plater B**
Posted on 10/02/91
To: GARY WOLF From: JOHN LOVIE
- Reply To 'BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS USING HPLC'
Gary, I just sent a reply to Ken. Your reply is a good example of the need for careful interpretation of HPLC data, and of the watch out that it can generate a lot more data than information. Nevertheless I feel that there is a place for HPLC for some of the additives in some baths. A 45 minute scan is not excessive
- many analyses take that long, and if you're only analysing weekly, as many do, who cares? The methods development is key in determining the usefulness of HPLC. Cheers John Lovie, ETI
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Msg. #2090 in ** Ask Plater B**
Posted on 10/02/91
To: TED MOONEY From: JOHN LOVIE
- Reply To 'BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS USING HPLC'
Ted, yes. I worked for a supplier for 17 years, and tried to promote HPLC and other analysis and control techniques from within. I met with a lot of resistance from within, and it's one of the reasons I'm no longer with a supplier. I felt I could contribute better from an independent position! Still, it's possible to do some things, but I echo don't buy until you've had the method tested by someone
- your vendor, the HPLC vendor, or a third party. Cheers John Lovie ETI
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Msg. #2091 in ** Ask Plater B**
Posted on 10/02/91
To: KEN ROSENBLUM From: JOHN LOVIE
- Reply To 'BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS USING HPLC'
Ken, Keep up the pressure on your supplier. He has the option of disclosing this information to you or to the HPLC vendor under a secrecy agreement, and he certainly has already done so when asked by an IBM, a Ford, a GM, etc. The suppliers must start helping US industry do what it needs to do. Cheers John Lovie, ETI
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Msg. #2111 in ** Ask Plater B**
Posted on 10/05/91
To: JOHN LOVIE From: TED MOONEY
- Reply To 'BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS USING HPLC'
I don't think Tom was saying that wanting to know the ingredients was an ego thing. Rather, that folks will always want to "improve" on the ingredients. He and I have seen some cases where people were confident that they could make a better brightener than the suppliers.
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Msg. #2116 in ** Ask Plater B**
Posted on 10/05/91
To: TED MOONEY From: JOHN LOVIE
- Reply To 'BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS USING HPLC'
I meant pretty much the same thing. Sorry if my meaning was unclear. Certain TLA (three letter acronym) customers assigned their own part number, their own specs, and eventually wound up thinking that it was their product and we were making it for them, rather than our formulation. They couldn't understand why they didn't have the formulation. Yet another (phones, this time) ,will tell you to this day that they formulate the brightener themselves from components (quick fix additives) and do it better than the supplier. They may be right. The problem is there's so little objective data on additives that everybody's working in the dark, but the suppliers like it that way. In the land of the blind.... Cheers John
(we should pick this up over a beer at the next branch meeting)
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Msg. #2118 in ** Ask Plater B**
Posted on 10/06/91
To: ALL From: KEN ROSENBLUM
- BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS BY HPLC I'M GLAD TO SEE ALL OF THE DISCUSSION REGARDING BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS. I TAKE THIS TO MEAN THAT MOST PEOPLE ARE AS FRUSTRATED AS I AM BY THE STATE OF THE ART OF PLATING BATH ANALYSIS. IT WOULD BE NICE TO HEAR SOME RESPONSES FROM REPRESENTATIVES OF THE CHEMICAL MANUFACTURERS; ESPECIALLY THE ONES WE USE SUCH AS M&T, MCGEAN-ROHCO, WITCO, GUMM, SANDOZ, ELECTROCHEMICALS, FIDELITY, ENTHONE, PARKER, HEATBATH, LUSTERON, TECHNIC, LEA RONAL, MACDERMID, ETC.
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Msg. #2119 in ** Ask Plater B**
Posted on 10/06/91
To: KEN ROSENBLUM From: JOHN LOVIE
- Reply To 'BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS BY HPLC'
Ken, my first exposure to plating was a summer job in a job shop back in England over 20 years ago while I was going through school. I was amazed at the lack of science in plating, to the extent that I joined Udylite after graduating with a vow to help bring plating into the 20th century. After 17 frustrating years with a supplier, I'm out on my own and still trying! There's still along way to go, but it is imperative that we make progress because otherwise plating, along with other parts of industry that refuse to change, will simply die. Cheers John Lovie
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