Toxicity of stainless and nickel silver flatware

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A. Hi Ezra.

Sarah's posting was from 15 years ago, but we'll try to email her and see whether a response comes.

Camp cookware can be made of solid titanium. Kitchen cookware is more likely clad, with titanium on the surface and aluminum or stainless steel on the inside. A small amount of titanium may be used in 18/10 or 18/8 (Type 316) stainless steel as an alternative to the small amount of molybdenum usually used in it, and people then call it "Titanium Stainless Steel". So it can be tricky to know exactly what you're getting.

Titanium is quite expensive so if the cookware isn't expensive it may not actually be titanium. Titanium is very light, very inert, and safe.
Luck & Regards,


Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey

A. Hi Anita.

As I'm sure you know, 'safe' isn't a yes or no proposition, it's a range. It's obviously unsafe to go out into a field in a thunderstorm and hold a 10-foot metal pole up in the air as high as you can reach. But it's also possible to be hit and killed by lightning in an automobile even though it's unusual -- nothing is 100% safe.

I personally have a bit of worn out silver plated nickel-silver flatware that we toss into the silverware drawer and pay no mind to. If I accidentally grab it for my morning cereal some days, that's what I use. If I had a pretty nickel silver punch bowl I'd use it -- your bowl might even have a lacquer or clearcoat on it anyway. As long as the punch didn't have a metallic taste I'd continue to use it. If the punch took on a metallic taste I wouldn't use it again because who wants that? As for 'toxic' though, I'm confident that a single Cold Easing tablet has far more zinc and far more metallic taste than a gallon of punch will ever have.

Luck & Regards,


Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey

A. Hello, ladies. Nickel silver (also called German Silver) actually does not contain any silver -- it is a copper-nickel alloy. German Silver may also contain zinc. Copper and zinc are not considered "food-safe" materials. This doesn't mean that the flatware presents a serious hazard (as Paracelsus tells us, the difference between a medicine and a poison lies in the dose) -- but at best it may mean an unpleasant metallic taste as you have already noticed. These days nickel-silver is mostly used as the base for silverplate rather than as a final finish; and as a base it is a strong, attractive, all around great material. If you have old and very worn silverplated flatware, you may well be seeing and tasting the underlying nickel-silver.

I would suggest that you either retire them to a place where they can be shown off but not used or -- much better -- that you send them to a silver plating shop and have them silver plated. Then they will retain their beautiful shape and balance, and you will keep your memories, but they will now be food-safe and free of any taste.

A. Hi, Michael. Although you would not want to eat or drink soluble silver salts, silver metal is something different entirely. I don't believe that there is any danger whatsoever in solid silver flatware or silver plated flatware. People have been safely using it for centuries (make that millennia).

Zinc plating will prove highly unsatisfactory. The appearance will be terrible after exposure to foods, and the zinc will dissolve into strongly alkaline or strongly acidic foods. Whether enough zinc would dissolve to be a dietary issue is a subject for a dietitian, but getting your zinc from a dissolving finish on flatware sounds like a very poor dosing strategy :-)

Regards,

A. Concerning potential benefits of zinc-plating to increase zinc consumption in generally zinc-deficient populations: Zinc is the mineral with the lowest toxicity level, about 4 times the RDA (around 10 mg for an adult). Fortunately, it also has the mildest symptoms--vomiting etc. It usually occurs when one imbibes a great quantity of an acidic beverage in zinc-treated containers...think Planter's Punch made in a zinc-metal trash can at a college party. Of course, God only knows just what quantity zinc is leaching into the acidic beverage from our zinc-plated container. The best way to increase zinc consumption is through the diet, where dosage is naturally more predictable and toxicity highly unlikely. Good food sources of zinc are nearly always high protein foods--meats (particularly oysters) and to a lesser extent, legumes--and fortified cereals.

A. Hi, Sarah. Thanks for the very interesting perspective on safety/toxicity, but that is not the reason that high quality stainless steel contains nickel. It contains nickel because this makes it far more rust resistant and corrosion resistant and almost non-magnetic. These pages are overflowing with complaints of rusty stainless flatware and stainless steel refrigerators as manufacturers switch from 18/10 or 18/8 to 18/0 for cost savings because of the high cost of nickel.

Regards,

A. Hi again, Sarah. Surely you should eat with whatever cutlery you wish and lobby for whatever changes you want.

I'm no epidemiologist and certainly don't challenge your employer's research. I just personally don't find the issue compelling considering that there seems to be worries about steel, aluminum, teflon coated, copper, zinc, silver, chrome, bronze, wood, plastic, and ceramic food surfaces too.

With frequent listeria, e coli, and salmonella outbreaks ... persistent pesticides on our fruits .... genetic engineering of our corn and vegetables .... antibiotics in our meat ... bST in our milk ... forever chemicals in the water ... and non-inspected food imported from every hovel in the third world, I just choose to focus on what is on my fork rather than in it :-)

But thanks again! I'm not here to argue ... and perhaps your answers are better than mine.

Best regards,

There is a zinc-copper alloy, it's common, it's called brass. It doesn't taste good and reacts with food, no thank you. I'll take bronze ware and 18/10 stainless any day.

A. Hi, Mary Ann. I run a metal finishing website. I am not an epidemiologist specializing in nickel and chrome, nor ADD and ADHD, and I cannot offer the authoritative research information you seek. If you feel that Ray Peat is authoritative, you can certainly try his site. But nickel is an expensive metal, so sellers proudly emphasize how much is in their flatware, not how little -- so I don't call them 'secret' ingredients.

If convenient, please provide a reference for the 'arsenic, chrome and nickel in apple and grape juice' that you allude to as I'm not familiar with it. Thanks!

Regards,

I think the secret ingredients that the previous poster was referring to, are the ones that companies don't list or refuse to share, when a person or organization specifically requests it.

Companies will oftentimes hide behind clauses like: "Well it's trade secret we don't want our competition to know."

There could be other additives added to get the bonding of different ingredients to bond better, give a particular look, durability, etc.

Companies may use chemicals or metals banned or shunned for possible health problems. They will often use "trade secret" / "ingredient secrets" clause to hide this fact.

Why would there be secret ingredients in first place other than obvious trade secret? Companies know if their product contains "KNOWN ISSUES" and the consumer is informed and educated to these facts before hand, the consumer would NOT BUY said goods or services. That is why MOST companies want their consumers completely in the dark till after the consumer forks over their meager $$.

In today's mostly unregulated economy with marginal returns, companies ARE and WILL do anything to keep the consumer in the dark and PREVENT the consumer from making an educated decision.

By the way, I like the article in that I was considering getting nickel plated cast iron skillet for induction cooking. Any thoughts as to the safety of this option, since it is a relatively new company that makes this product (they say they been doing it since 2005).

The point of "FDA approved nickel impregnated cast iron" is heat retention with the corrosion resistance of nickel and the lack of seasoning and flavor memory that can be used in a induction cooking. And it is 3 times harder than stainless steel. Not to mention heavy, 13 inch skillet is 7 lb.
Here is a quote about not all nickel is created equal as follows from the site which is owned by the said company:

" Q: Is the Nickel pure Nickel?
A: No. This is an FDA recommended nickel composite which passes Military Spec. # C-26074, and all required tests. The application is non-electrolytic." ...
Q: Is the Nickel NSF approved?
A: Yes. It has been used for years in the manufacture of food processing equipment. Machines that make pancakes, pizzas, pre-made frozen eatables, etc. have to be cleaned with strong detergents to prevent bacterial growth and rust. Nickel has been used to maintain the integrity of these components. "

Problem with nickel fear is people are "NOT BEING SPECIFIC ENOUGH" about which is which.

Corey

Hi, Corey.

Companies can't hide their ingredients from the regulatory agents, but yes, sales & marketing people sell "benefits" rather than "features/details".

Rarely are they hiding dangers (which can result in huge product liability payouts), but they do try to sell fancy words rather than facts. If you follow the link to the MIL-C-26074 [on DLA] spec you mentioned, you'll see that both military & industry professionals call that very common finish "electroless nickel plating"; in a whole lifetime of living & breathing nickel electroplating and electroless plating, I have never once heard their flowery phrase "nickel composite ... non-electrolytic nickel impregnated" :-)

Regarding "known issues", the media knows that people will stay up for the 11 o'clock news if the teaser is "Toxic time bomb in your kitchen?", but not for "Pots and pans are safe". Similarly, as H L Mencken observed long ago, the aim of politicians is to conjure up hobgoblins they can then propose to protect you from. So we never hear reassurance or balance, only fear mongering. There are such "Issues" with every possible material, so sure, salespeople won't often mention what something is made out of, because no matter what it is, there are always "Issues" :-)

Regards,

A. Hi, Peter.

From the stamping, they sound like they are made of nickel silver. This is a nickel alloy with no actual silver in it, that is usually silver plated. If it is not silver plated, it sounds like it would give you an "off" metallic taste. But as long as you are not eating off of them, that's no problem.

Regards,

A. Hi Valeria. I visited St. Croix and Christiansted about 3 years ago and agree that you are writing from an absolutely beautiful place. Sorry that a public forum isn't a great place for time-sensitive questions, since people may not weigh in for a week or a month or even more.

The boiling point of water is a mere 100 °C (212 °F); the boiling point of soup might be a couple of degrees higher, but you can't get it hotter than its boiling point. So the part of the spoon that was in the soup was at most boiling temperature, and the rest of the spoon simply can't get much hotter when most of it is held to boiling temperature. This isn't even close to halfway towards the melting point of any metal. Yes, the silver tarnished, from eggs or other sulfur-ish food, but the silver tarnish is still on the spoon, not in the soup, and it wouldn't be dangerous even if it was. Bon Appetit.

Regards,

A. Hi Tejas. Silver is surely the most appropriate plating for flatware. I suppose electroless nickel is a possibility; but I don't like the idea of getting involved with a skin allergen like nickel. Good luck.

Regards,

A. Hi Tina. I don't know of any reason to think this finish would be unacceptable in the USA or anywhere. But regulations are complicated, so I apologize but I can't guarantee that there are no rules anywhere that discourage or preclude it. And whatever you make it out of, somebody somewhere will accuse you of trying to poison them :-)

Regards,

A. Hi Mark. I don't know where you're finding the leach rate for electroless nickel coatings ... I can't easily find it. But I see that the corrosion rate of electroless nickel in hot (180 °F, 82 °C) deionized water is zero, so I find it surprising.

Luck & Regards,


Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey

A. Hi. Silver is one of the longest used flatwares and drink containers, going back many centuries. It's not dangerous. But the plating is thin and it won't last long if repeatedly put in the dishwasher. At least put the flatware in a separate section of the basket. Good luck.

Regards,

A. Hello Yu. Most silverplated flatware is made of nickel silver. As the silver plating wears away, you see this discoloration because the plating and the base metal are not the same material. You can't remove such differences and they are not stains. I think maybe this flatware was silver plated at one time.

They probably have a metallic taste. The correct answer is probably that they should be sent out for silver plating; then they will not have a metallic taste and they will look good.

It is possible that when they were made years ago the intention was to use them without silver plating, but there have been a number of stupid flatware ideas over the years: I even have a piece of "made in Japan" copper-nickel-chrome plated steel flatware from perhaps the same time period and it was simply a bad idea. Maybe people therefore became more concerned with what the flatware was made of than plated with :-)

Regards,

A. Hi Viji. The best flatware is sterling silver. Sterling silver and silverplated teapots & tea cups, goblets and chalices have been used for hundreds of years. Silver plated or sterling silver serving trays are a commonplace. I am not an epidemiologist of course but I would have no reason to suspect any problem from frequent use of sterling silver (92.5 purity) or silver plated food service items. Best wishes to your brother.

Regards,

A. Hi Carla. There is nothing you can make food service items out of that nobody will say has "health risks"; but with tens or hundreds of millions of people using worn silverplate, I think it would be on the news every week if it was a significant problem.

(this is what silverplate looks like when the plating has worn through)

Nickel Detect /
Nickel Alert

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There are nickel test kits you could try ⇨
... but basically you can see the discoloration if the silver plating has worn through, and most people seem to get a "metallic taste" as well if the silver plating is worn out.

Regards,

A. Hello Jean. Whether you send your nickel-silver to the landfill or not, I'm not getting my dinner from the landfill :-)

The point being that just because something like nickel silver isn't great to eat off of doesn't render it a toxin worse than rotting garbage; so you can certainly dispose of unwanted flatware. But your town's public works yard probably has a metal collection dumpster.

The deeper answer is that:
1. the silver plating on plated silverware is so thin that it's not saleable as precious scrap like sterling silver is.
2. if the silver plating has worn off, you will probably get an "off" taste, a metallic taste. It can be replated with silver, which solves the problem, but this may only be economically feasible if the flatware has sentimental value to you.
3. times change and tastes change and there is little market these days for silverplate of any sort; so worn silverplate has little or no value. Sorry.

Regards,

A. Hi D. This thread unfortunately conflates silver-plated nickel-silver flatware with stainless steel flatware, which can be a bit confusing.

But as far as I know there would not ever be a metallic taste from stainless steel flatware of any sort. I've certainly never encountered it, although I taste the nickel-silver metal sometimes from some well-worn silverplate.

Your set has good reviews on Amazon! You're sure you didn't take Cold-eze, or use an inhaler, or chew on a ballpoint pen recently?  :-)

But I'm not so sure it's actually 18/10 ... the current description I see of this product on Oneida.com says 18/0, although some eBay listings say it's 18/10 -- maybe 'Satin Countess' is a pattern made in both grades.

Regards,

A. See if a regular magnet (Alnico) will stick to it fairly strongly. If it does, it's one of the 400 series stainless steels, all of which contain no nickel and are, therefore, more prone to rusting (often, rust spotting), etc. 18/0 SS is in the 400 series.

If it doesn't stick, it is 300 series, which would include 18/8, 18/10, etc. The 18/8, e.g., contains 18 chromium/8 nickel The 300 series is less prone to corrosion than the 400 series, due to the nickel content.

It seems that 400 series is stronger and 300 series is more corrosion resistant. 410 stainless is so strong it is used to make jet engine stators.

The newer super-strong neodymium magnets, like those found in computer hard drives, are finding their way into new products and you can buy a big stack of just the magnets on Amazon and eBay. If you want an easier time holding up stuff on the refrigerator, get a dozen of these, at least 1/4" in dia. - on eBay, you can find 50 of them for under $10. The bigger they are, the harder they are to pull off - sometimes it's easiest to slide them off. If the stuff you're holding up is too heavy, use 2 or 3.

These new neodymium magnets will stick to both 400 and 300 series SS. The attraction to each series is dramatically different, so you could separate them with one of these magnets. They stick to 400 series so strong that it's hard to get them off. In my experience, with 300 series, these magnets stick about like a regular Alnico magnet does on 400 series. Stuck pretty tight, but easy to pull off.

Please read this thread:
www.finishing.com/292/94.shtml

Hi Lisa. You moved the opposite direction that I did. I was in Toms River (Silverton) for 16 years.

We appended your inquiry to a thread on the subject. "Silverplate" is made of nickel-silver that is plated with pure silver. If the silver plating wears thru, you will first see it as in the photograph I previously posted on this page, and then you'll most likely taste it as a faint metallic or 'electric' taste, especially if you lick the spoon when you eat.

If you see none of that discoloration, it's still completely covered with silver. Silver has been used for centuries and is certainly safe.

If you do see that discoloration and taste it, the underlying nickel-silver is exposed. Personally I think it will be a matter of finding the discoloration unattractive, and the metallic taste annoying, long before you need to think about the possibility of too much metal in your diet. But you can have it replated if it looks like it requires it, and if you wish.

Regards,