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Gunsmith Bluing (cont'd)

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Q. To blue or not to blue that is the question.

I have been blueing for about 9 months and have tried everything short of using black paint. (Just kidding)

I have read everything there is to read on Parkerizing and blueing, and basically it's expensive. If you want to do it right it is anyways..... or if you want to pay someone to do it for you.

My first try was the hand rub method... using Birchwood Casey products. First I degreased the parts, then the Rust and blue remover [adv: bluing remover on eBay or Amazon [affil links] finally a good final cleaning on the bench grinder with the steel brush. Then I hand rubbed the Perma blue ⇦ this on eBay or Amazon [affil links] on and let it cure in gun oil.

Final product okay (At the time beyond my wildest expectations) by todays standards.. acceptable at best.

Next I tried the dunk method. I still clean the parts the same way, but I actually bought enough blueing solution to fill a little bath and dunk the parts in there and let them sit until the were blued. After which I once again cured them in gun oil.

Final product: better, a tad darker but still not Factory.

Next: The Boil and dunk method. Once again, cleaning the parts, as mentioned above but next I boiled them in a bath of water, epsom salt [affil links] and baking soda [in bulk on eBay or Amazon [affil links] . (This will remove whatever you thought you had removed but was still sticking on it . The Epson salt/Baking soda sets the boiling point a little higher : approx. 225 degrees) Then the same dunk and cure method.

Final result: Nice Dark and deep blueing. When curing the pieces black residue did come off, but I was told this is normal. I am very happy with this blueing, but I am about to try the Copper sulphate/Iron Chloride/Hydrochloric acid/Nitric acid in Water solution. and per the advice of the Local Curio and Relic Gunshop I will cure in WD-40 ⇦ this on eBay or Amazon [affil links] this time.

I want you to know I did have to build a couple of baths in PVC to accommodate all this, but I haven't spend the $125 I would have if I was to have a gun blued.

One last word of advice.... You will have to look high and low to find Nitric Acid. I actually had a Neighbor (Aspiring Chemist) distill me a 90% pure batch of Nitric Acid.

I will keep you all up to date on how this last blueing turns out.

Michel M. Thiran
- Tarpon Springs, Florida
2002

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Q. I came across this site some time ago and have been browsing it for letters on slow rust blueing. I want to use this process on some custom Mauser rifles that I am building, in stead of having them hot blued.

I cannot get hold of the ready to use solutions, supplied by Brownell's amongst others, because US companies don't ship chemicals to Europe and these solutions are not available over here.

I am not a chemist, but have access to a lot of chemicals since I am a teacher in a technical school.

I would appreciate some proven recipes and "how to do this" for rust blue solutions that give a dark, black, sustainable appearance and that can be mixed and processed at home.

Hope to get some answers soon!

Marcel ten Thije
home gunsmith - Borculo, Netherlands
2004

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2006

Is anyone interested in continuing this thread?

Hi,
I'm new here and have been reading through these posts. I can probably answer or direct folks to the answers of most of these questions.
Thanks

Tim Northcutt
- Austin, Texas

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Ed. note: the thread remains active and supported, Tim. Please add whatever comments and answers you wish.
I once read a "Hints from Heloise" column in the newspaper where the poster's question was what to do about a red wine splash on her sweater. Heloise began with "if you catch it before it dries", which sounded quite unlikely considering the time frame of the writer composing a letter, mailing it, time in transit, Heloise writing an answer, getting it published in the paper, and the news carrier getting the paper to the writer :-)
The point of course is that there are a lot of readers looking for answers for each writer who posts one.

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I was goggling for Blue Wonder and found this site. I have to say it's been a lot of interesting reading. I don't even like reading about this sort of stuff :) sorry.
Just had to say for about the past six or seven years now I sit at my computer doing what I love (making graphics) while my husband sits just as long rubbing his guns. Rubbing hours upon hours.
We have both found what keeps us content. That is a good thing.

He does all his own reloading as well, and has taken several of his guns apart and (whatever he does between) put them back together. And has redone the wood on several. He is retired, I tell him he should do this as a business at home 'cause he enjoys it so much, but he won't? I know if I could get a business doing my graphics I would jump on it.

Oh well nothing to learn from me here just a little input, maybe some other wives out there might enjoy my post.
Keep smiling, you made a woman with no gun interests (except shooting one) read all these interesting messages.

Cathy Sansone
- Ennis, Texas
2007

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Q. Can anyone tell me the difference between gun blue #5 or #7, as opposed to gun blue #9. I just can't seem to find it anywhere.

yvette barron
bass pro - bossier city, Louisiana
2007

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Hi, I would like to be very blunt for a minute... If all you have to say is leave it to a professional, I would really not like to hear the rest of what you have to say! In all due respect, you are "master gunsmith's" yes, but the issue that I have is that I am a very talented young man with a grandfather that was a gunsmith that died before I was born and a father that is a Master pipe-fitter/steamfitter. I have learned many things from my father and have been blessed with his mechanical talents, hell I was taking apart cars when I was 13!

All I hear is leave it to a professional, but my question is, where did you learn it from? Don't you owe someone to pass on your trade? I live in Phoenix and I'll be damned if I can find a gunsmith that is worth his salt, so to say, to take me on as an apprentice, and comes with the benefit of me cleaning the shop and I'm talking about polishing machines to a luster to match the weapons they turn out just to be taught the "right" way. And the response that I have got has been all about not wanting to have someone steal their secrets or some other lame excuse that revolves around the same idea.

I must be missing something but the same trade secrets that you are trying to protect are the same secrets that are going to die with you just like my grandfathers and in this world, you more than anyone should know that things just aren't done right anymore. Maybe there is a reason for that? Well my answer to that is I will teach myself and take the time to learn how to do things the right way without the help of anyone, even though I would like to have someone there to let me know I am doing things right. for what its worth think twice about why you discourage the younger generation and maybe you will start finding secrets of why most young kids are so screwed up.

Anyway that is just my 2 cents for what its worth and I have found all of the chemicals needed to put together the mix, even the solution in the amateur gun-smithing book, and yes I had to learn how to make spirits of nitre all my myself. and to add I put my entire bluing setup tanks, salts and all together for just about 100.00 usd. I also took 4 years of jewelry class in high school and was a body man for a while and can make metal shine like glass. I don't think it will take that long to learn.

So in closing, yes, I would love more than anything to hand scrub a shop to learn the proper ways of doing things because I take pride in what I do and if it's all for nothing someone just got a polished floor and machines out of the deal. But I don't think I'll have any takers, I haven't so far. My suggestion, get some books and read everything, take a machining class and practice making perfect junk and turn your own guns into works of art and still not have any respect but now you did the job right. Thanks for your time. I'm still a potential apprentice.

Justin Gates
- Maricopa, Arizona
July 22, 2010

P.S.: and readers please, don't take recipes out of books and write them down here. Pointing the direction to the book so people can read all of the authors' notes about how to put solutions together is better because without good knowledge of chemistry and a fair amount of common sense, someone can get hurt. Especially if we are guessing about one of the ingredients of a solution.

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April 24, 2011

This has been interesting reading.

Years ago I came across a formula for hot bluing salts that I used to re-blue a pistol and three 22 pistols that I made.

1 US gallon of water.
5 pounds of caustic soda.
2 1/2 pounds 33% ammonium nitrate fertilizer.

Get the water boiling and add the caustic soda keeping the water to a slow rolling boil.
A little at a time add the ammonium nitrate. There is a heat producing chemical reaction so it is necessary to keep reducing the heat as you add the ammonium nitrate. The down side is that there are large volumes on ammonia ⇦ this on eBay or Amazon [affil links] gas released. Stay down wind and on a still day use a fan to create a wind. Do this out side.

The bluing from this formula is on the blackish side but is quite durable.

A couple of years ago I tried to source some caustic soda to make a new batch for a barrel I put on a Falling Block Works action and never got around to bluing. It seems that the home brew pharmaceuticals use caustic soda and in Canada it is like hens teeth.

I decided that I would have to rust blue the barrel and went looking at what is available. I quickly realized that shipping rust bluing chemicals was going to problematic and expensive. Make my own seemed to be a reasonable solution to my problem. Nitric acid always seems to be needed but again problematic and expensive and expensive shipping. I finally found a formula that I actually had all the required chemicals for.

2 fl oz hydrochloric acid sometimes labeled muriatic acid (building supply)
2 fl oz ferric chloride ⇦ this on eBay or Amazon [affil links] (circuit board etching, electronics hobby store)
8 fl oz distilled water (drug store)
8 fl oz methyl hydrate (building supply)

The only caution here is that you must add the acid to the water, then you can chuck all the other stuff in in any order. I found out very quickly that hydrochloric acid as diluted as it was still fumed and turned stuff in my shop rusty. Before exacerbating the situation I added framing nails until there was no more digestion. The last nail just would not get eaten away. There was a black sediment that I think was the carbon in the nails, I used a coffee filter and a plastic funnel to filter that out. It would probably be better to kill the water/ hydrochloric acid mixture before adding the ferric chloride ⇦ this on eBay or Amazon [affil links] and methyl hydrate.

The long and the short of it was I ended up with a nice rust blued barrel. I took 2 goes to get it right. I was expecting to see red rust and waited and waited (to long) and got pitting. The barrel did rust but was a very dark brown with purple hints.

Hints. Shellac in the bore and any other places that absolutely do not need to turn rusty, works wonders. When the bluing is done methyl hydrate will remove the shellac.

Red rust will turn to black oxide using electrolysis and seems to do a more thorough job than boiling. Google for "electrolysis rust removal". The electrolysis method uses washing or baking soda that will kill any acid.

Richard Sanders
- Williams Lake BC Canada

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November 2, 2011

Follow up to my previous posting....

I have taken the time to fully research all the chemicals involved in the old bluing methods and I have to say that I have some new pointers....
First...Sweet Spirit of Nitre evaporates to fast to even have it as a usable chemical. As oppose to making my owe I obtained some from a chemical supply store, and no you CANNOT GET IT FROM A DRUGIST, its barely made or used now days. The name for it is ether and was used in starting fluid until the FDA took it off the shelf, hence why it started cars so well, atomizes very fast.

I have found that you can sub hydrochloric acid for muriatic acid and is in just about the same aqueous solution that was used with hydrochloric acid. This is a gentle prep bath for taking out copper fouling out of the barrels that will deplete you new bluing solution. Temp about 150f will do fine to open the pours in the metal and release trapped grease and grit without a harsh effect on the metal.

After fifteen minutes in that bath take and soak in just under boiling water the rid the acids. Some with say to add a bit of vinegar ⇦in bulk on eBay or Amazon [affil links] or something to that like but I have not had to, it just neutralizes the acid.

Next let it dry and cool, common sense "hot don't touch" and then you may start your polishing. 110% of your bluing job comes down to prep, don't skimp. Card with file, 60 grit to take out the carding scratches all the way up to buffing for me. I like perfection.

Next your tank of sodium hydroxide, you need to clean the parts once again. 175f will be just fine," again common sense sodium hydroxide will blind you with just a drop" prepare and as for me, I wear a full suit going forward.
Dip in the tank and please done cork or plug the barrel because you're asking for an accident. Remember when heat up and cool down pressure from the atoms expanding causes a bad situation. I took this next line out of a book and I would quote but the author and book is not in front of me. After fifteen minutes lift up just a little bit of the part out of the bath for just a second, if the water rolls off you still have oil or something on the part, this will give you splotches. After you can lift it up and I say just for a second because the rusting will start very quickly being exposed to the air you can take the part and place it back in the hot water for a quick rinse. Then into the bluing bath.

My concoction is:
2 parts sodium nitrate
1 part potassium nitrate
1.5 parts sodium hydroxide
1 or 2 table spoons of non-iodized salt
And 5 parts water.

Mix dry ingredients first.
Then (slowly add distilled water)
Bring up to temp; I don't us a thermometer I just keep it right at a simmer. This will take a while and you will have to mix it up as it comes up to temp. I would once again use PPE and well ventilated area but this mix will not combust 1 because of the lack of carbon 2 you need 2 times the energy to bring the mix to critical.

Soak for fifteen or 20 minutes then I move my parts to an ice bath for a few seconds then back in the bluing solution for 10 minutes then into the hot water for 15 minutes. After that let dry and swab the bore with and oil patch and oil the hell out of it. I use marvels mystery oil, but that's up to you.

Like I said before, everything is in a book and I had to read an organic and inorganic chemistry book just for back up. If you don't know what you are doing or can't even do the proper research to find out what the old names of chemicals were compared to what they call them now, you're going to hurt yourself because this is an art not for the lazy man. Just my thoughts. If I missed something please post so I may correct.

Justin Gates [returning]
- Maricopa, Arizona

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November 20, 2012

Q. Hi,
I have recently started hot bluing firearms and have a couple of questions.
I have so far completely hot blued three rifles with good results, however, I am having difficulty regulating the temperature of my salts tank to the often suggested "slow rolling boil".
The tank is 40" x 6" x 6". I am using industrial dial thermometers with 9 inch probes which extend into the tank within 1" of the bottom. The tank is heated with an LPG (propane) pipe burner.
I do understand that it is the concentration of the caustic salts to water which regulates the solution's boiling point however I seem to reach the correct temperature of approximately 148 °C at which point the solution will go from a normal "heating" state to a sudden boil over which leaves much of the solution on the ground.
The bath will then seem to stabilize without bubbling or any obvious reaction at a temperature of less than 140 °C at which point I introduce the gun parts to the bath.
This often results with the parts changing color to a grey/green while immersed and a blotchy red color after they come out of the neutralizing tank (after rinsing). I then remove the parts and hang on a wire hook, spray with WD-40 ⇦ this on eBay or Amazon [affil links] and rub down with 00 steel wool ⇦ this on eBay or Amazon [affil links] which reveals a pleasing finish however after much rubbing and wiping with a dry cloth.
Is this the normal experience with hot bluing or should is there something that needs adjusting?
Any comments are appreciated.

Add Note: Yes I am very aware of the safety precautions required during this process and adhere them religiously.

Thanks JB

Jeff Borg
- Sydney, NSW, Australia

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Q. I have a question regarding the safety of the chemicals used for blueing of guns. Are there any procedures to follow when setting up a blueing facility such as ventilation, safety gear etc. What are the side effects of using the chemicals? What would the effect be on contact with human skin.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Johannes Tsimako
- Gaborone, Botswana
February 4, 2013

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Q. I See The Beretta Fs 92 slide. On which this slide there is color. Is this black oxide?
If yes, then what is the detail procedure to make black oxide?
I checked the Beretta slide. It looks like lacquer is sprayed on the surface. I am confused if this is lacquer spray or a chemicals solution.

Saif Ul Amin
- Peshawar Pakistan
March 1, 2015

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A fast way to get "slow rust finish"

Q. I first read this thread probably six years ago; even went by and visited Tim Bell in Lake City, SC, one of the contributors. Every so often I think I will try slow rust bluing; usually I lie down in a quiet dark room for an hour and it goes away. But about a year ago I met a remarkable man, in his 80's, who lives in Eli Whitney, NC; he can build anything from scratch, and especially likes to build authentic muzzle loading rifles. I won't give his name, not having asked him, but his method of bluing, which I have watched once and need to do again, seemed simple and effective, and I wondered it any of these readers might be able to comment and even improve on it.

Having polished as everyone does, and degreased, I think using a solvent rather than soap (I myself have used Methyl Ethyl Ketone, which boils a little higher than acetone); he then puts the part, in this case a gun barrel, in a tank of boiling water--outdoors, over a wood fire. When it's suitably hot, he fishes it out, not touching it with his hands both to avoid oils and because it's darned hot, and dabs on Mark Lee Express Brown #1; the barrel immediately begins turning quite brown. He then plunges it back into the boiling water, and the brown turns black. He pulls it out, rubs it fairly gently with a cloth, and then puts on more of the Brown, if the barrel is still hot; otherwise he reheats it first; and repeats this same cycle maybe five or six times, till he gets the color he wants. He then coats the barrel with (I think) motor oil and lets it sit for a couple of days. The result is very dark and pleasing to the eye, and the whole process takes less than a morning; so it's "slow" rust bluing, but it's not that slow--not sitting overnight in the humidity to rust, each coat.

I may have some of the details wrong; I'm hoping to contact him again around Xmas and see if I can watch and maybe even video the process; but I hoped this might stimulate some helpful comments from this forum.
Thanks,

Lowrie Beacham
- Efland, North Carolina, USA
November 29, 2016

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As a CERTIFIED gunsmith working in the industry for many years, I have learned much about metal finishing. From my experience, I have found that the only reason to use these Neanderthalic formulas and methods of bluing is if you are performing a true, honest to god, return to original restoration (where the method of finishing is inspected and graded/judged to influence value).

There are many different ways to attain the finish and color you are looking for (cold blue is the worst!), some much more tedious and expensive than others. But in a nutshell, leave this work to the professionals that have been properly trained and mastered this skill. You will spend much more time and money, and without the PROPER chems and methods and temperatures (in which some of the information you are getting here is incorrect and very unhealthy to the metal) you will NOT end up with the desired look you are trying for and need to bring to a CERTIFIED gunsmith to correct your mistakes and give what you really want ... otherwise, you may as well use "rustoleum" spray paint because that's the quality you'd expect to get from some of these methods (for the love of god, please don't spray-paint your gun ... I was making a point).

It sounds like some of these responses have the experience and knowledge to do this right, but a lot are just quoting some regurgitated, made up formulas that I guarantee they have never used successfully and you will end up risking damage to your metal. Also, the most important part of metal finishing is PREPARATION! One tiny mistake in prep work, and it can cost you time, money, and possibly severe contamination (I have witnessed this myself.) The job you're looking for is best done by a CERTIFIED, trained professional that knows what he is doing as well as willing to take responsibility for his work. and it is way, way cheaper than botching a job because you were trying to save money! I have had to work with over-dehydrated metals from botched attempts to blue, and let me tell you when I do, the customer pays dearly for their mistakes. I hope this makes sense to you.

M. Hufford
- Katy, Texas U.S.A.
March 25, 2017

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September 3, 2021

While some of what you say is correct. Your comment knocking about regurgitated formulas as being of little value is a bit of "pot n kettle" is it not!?! You went to school or learned from another smith. Thus you did not nor did 99% of those doing bluing work invent or discover the formulas. No, you and them were taught them. In other words given them either from book or in person. Either way were you to post your formula even being a master in bluing you still would be simply regurgitating something you read or were taught. Now yes I agree fully there is a huge difference between someone giving a recipe they have personally used vs someone just doing research and posting what they found. The key is presenting the facts. Stating you just found this recipe in this book or you have used this recipe many times personally.

In my opinion telling people to leave things to professionals has dumbed down the western population as a whole. 99% of people cannot do 1/100 if what my grandparent knew how to and I was lucky it was passed on and to me.

Everytime anything with a bit or danger if not using common sense or bothering to find the correct way and everyone screams leave it to a pro. Tree falling in yard leave cutting it to a pro. Car brakes leave it to a pro. Gunsmithing leave it to a pro, on and on. I was taught how to cut trees, work on guns & cars reload, how to birth cattle, put stitches in to seal a wound. Pull a tooth and countless other things by the time I was a mid teen. People today if they lost the comfy western first world conveniences would be lost and die. This includes many so called preppers as it takes far more than reading books and storing supplies.

It is always bad to restrict knowledge.

Tony Komer
- New edison,

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Q. I have been bluing guns since the mid 70s. For years I used a buffing compound called "alo sheen" supplied by Herters; this was as good as it gets. Is it still available, and from where?

Bill Aumer
- Milford Iowa
May 2, 2017

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November 30, 2017

 I wanted to join the conversation by stating that the art of rust bluing and temper bluing is being lost because of trade secrets being protected, and the failure to pass these processes along to the next generation. I am glad that finishing.com is keeping these crafts alive by having a forum to pass along to people like myself that want to learn, but by no means do I care to try to make a living from it, or heaven forbid take a professional gun smiths business from them. I started researching the methods because no one can tell you this method will match that models finish. So, as a collector, I want to know these variations.

I experimented once with steel plate to create a very black of black surface color for a solar heat collector plate. I basically grilled a the clean bare steel on my gas grill and basted it (yes like barbecue) with the blackest dirtiest used motor oil I had on hand. Believe it or not this plate is still without rust after being thrown around in my garage boxes 10 years later including the scratch offs. What I did not know at the time was the process I was doing which was tempering.

Most pre WWII pistols were either "rust" blued or "tempered" blued. Based on my collection, I feel most European guns were rust blued like FN,& Mauser, Beretta.

The American made pistol seemed to be big into the Temper bluing which the finished pistols were heated in charcoal troughs with a mixture of bone ash and possible oil. Later, they were finished in rotating ovens I am pretty certain were all made by the American Gas Furnace Company which supplied the proprietary "Carbonia" mixture to Smith & Wesson, not Colt. Colt to my knowledge, referred to their finish as Royal Blue. Either way the process was the same, the pistol once finished polished and cleaned was heat exposed to the charcoal mixture then oil quenched to stop the process, then cleaned and sealed.

My 100 plus year old FN 1903s which were rust blued still appear almost new, were military issued, handled, and holstered which doing the same to a Colt 1903 will ruin the finish very rapidly on a tempered blued pistol . Collectors know from experience, its very hard to find and very expensive to buy a perfect Colt that is 100 years old. But the appeal of the finished look of the Colts tempered finishes are much more appealing than the rust blue finish of the FN 1903. For one, the level of polishing enhances tempering, but with rust bluing you can only polish so much than its hard to get the gun to rust.

Since I am not professional Gunsmith, I am going to pass along some things I have learned.

Wikipedia Metallurgy Tempering is a must-read as the examples of color change are done excellently to learn the process. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempering_%28metallurgy%29

copper sulphate ⇦ this on eBay or Amazon [affil links] in a rust blue solution probably has absolutely nothing to do with creating the black iron oxide, but I am of the opinion the greater the quantity in the formula, the greater the blue verse black appearance, which creates a reflective light spectrum creating the blue effect.

Rust bluing depends on the metal content, adding iron shaving to a rust blue formula probably enhances the black finish. Mill scale on hot rolled steel is identical to almost every FN pistol with exception to very early FN 1900s that have the "Royal Blue" rust blue look. So think about it, if mill scale is identical to FNs finishes than the FN rust formula was probably a simple recipe to convert the guns steel content to rust.

Touch up on rust blued guns can be done by applying a rust solution to the spot, then steaming the specific spot to convert to black. FN steamed their rust blued pistols, they did not boil them as boiling is time consuming and risk greater contamination than steaming. FN also had a huge steam generated power plant so they had plenty of steam for the ovens. Wallpaper steamers are great and can be easily modified as needed, also a stainless steel pot with stainless steel basket works great for steaming.

I am mentally building my temper oven which to replicate Colts and S&W, which had an outside drum that was heated creating an internal chamber that had another shaft that rotates the mounted parts the opposite direction and tumbles the bone ash charcoal mixture over the parts. One source said the charcoal bone ash mixture did nothing to effect the color of the finish but eliminated oxygen from the internal drum chamber. The bone ash probably does nothing for the color but helps control heat transfer and oxygen removal, but any oil or tar substance in the mixture would effect the finish color because quenching in clean motor oil leaves a light blue patina, verse quenching in dirty motor oil leave a black finish. Based on how the later oven Colt 1903s look blue or black leads me to believe the mixture effects the finish color. S&W Carbonia finish was a pine tar mixture and aren't those finishes very black?

Firearm Bluing and Browning by R.H. Angier is a great source for all finish types, and formulas and section H discusses temper bluing and S&W Carbonia oven process is described. It takes a read or two to understand the archaic English, but the formulas are extensive and done in grains and pints, and grams and ccm. I am starting out with formulas that are foot noted to produce good results with a corresponding letter matched to the formula. This is where a formula with very high content copper sulphate is noted to produce a Saxon Blue look. This book can be bought for a Kindle. Part 2; Section 4; C10 (M) formula is the one with a high amount of copper sulphate and the noting of a Saxon Blue finish, which is probably the similar to the first FN 1900s very blue color, then later a grey black color so a notable formula change in FNs production.

Potassium nitrate is Spectracide Root Remover and its pure, I dissolved it in hot water, coffee filtered it twice, then recrystallized and dried it and found no impurities. copper sulphate is drain cleaner in the plumbing department and appears to be pure crystals; lye for hot salt solution is sold there also, and hydrochloric acid is in the concrete cleaner section simply dilute to reduce concentration. Ammonium nitrate is usually sold at local coop feed suppliers, Lowes and Home Depot do not stock. 99% Nitric acid cost me the most for a pint about $80 but $35 of that was hazardous shipping cost so you might find a local source. ferric chloride ⇦ this on eBay or Amazon [affil links] is sold at Radio Shack, and the alcohol can be bought at a liquor store being pure grain alcohol at 90% to 95% grade. Harbor freight sales a great scale, and you can buy a dc multi power supply to operate it or batteries. I hope to do some samples of formula variations using a base starting formula then seeing the variations with varying quantities of iron fillings and or and copper sulphate.

I hope I am sharing and passing along some great trade secrets. I have learned more here than any gun forum so hopefully people can pass it along.

Ed Simpson
- Rogers, Arkansas